PROPOSAL - peanalities/rewards for raiders

[Gobbledoc]

Reward/Punishment

Punishment - you get no rewards:

In reality this means that:

     Minor Infraction:
           1  Warning - don't do it again
           2  Get suicided on the loot list for the instance you are on. in the current group

     REPEATED or BIGGER infraction: jump straight to

           3  Suicided (SINBIN) to the bottom of the list you are on.  You REMAIN there for the balance of the raid, getting loot LAST.

     BIGGEST Infraction:
           4  You have already been suicided so not its time to leave the raid. YOu realise that this will mean you don't climb this list again when you are not in the raid don't you ?)

Additional Sanctions:
    

Other Notes:
Make being in the SINBIN an officer thing.  Dont show it in ARKDkp for anyone but officers.  this will hopefully take some of the sting out AND remove the 'public shaming' thing.  Pride & Ego make people do things they ordinarily wouldnt.  Make the person getting sanctioned aware.
Warn before SINBINING.
Only SINBIN where the infraction cant be argued (the facts are plain).
Be prepared to have the person Gquit and NOT invite them back - ever.  We all do things in the heat of the moment.  If you cant tell the difference between logging out and gquitting then i dont want to guild with you.

Don't do any of the above unless the mod can be modified to fit this or something like it in.  Admin sucks.  Hard.  Take excuses for failure depending on circumstances, thats fine, but a pattern of behaviour - well - something tangible needs to be done.

All of the above obtains only if the person is to be allowed the opportunity to correct their behaviour.  I expect that at other times a scuicide on the current list and a raid kick will be more than a sufficient wake up call.

Reward:
You get loot.
You get all the other intangibles.  Satisfaction of a job well done and so on.


Please feel free to comment constructively. this is a proposal ONLY so far

[Gruscovac]

tbh I'm still tempted to say the crafting raid drops (not the patterns the orbs saronite etc) should be free to raiders as long as it's used to craft an upgrade piece for them.

[Zurgug]

Has my vote.

[Kosta]

tbh I'm still tempted to say the crafting raid drops (not the patterns the orbs saronite etc) should be free to raiders as long as it's used to craft an upgrade piece for them.

Another option would be not to make them 'free' but to do it similar to the way some other guilds do by making it cost dkp / possition on the kings list. 

[Oogall]

tbh I'm still tempted to say the crafting raid drops (not the patterns the orbs saronite etc) should be free to raiders as long as it's used to craft an upgrade piece for them.

Another option would be not to make them 'free' but to do it similar to the way some other guilds do by making it cost dkp / possition on the kings list. 

the problem with this would be that these craft items are used to fund the guild repairs.  are you willing to give up 180G per night of progression for a roll for a chance to gain an orb?  Say we down 20 bosses (+/- 40) in 4 nights and each drop a craftable item.  everyone rolls on orbs cause most everyone has a profession (main or alt) that can use it.  20 chances in a 25 man raid, but you have repair bills that total upwards of 720G (+/- some respectable number) for that week (it can get that high on bad weeks in plate i'm sure).  I think I'd rather have my repairs paid and use the gold saved to purchase the items from the guild bank.  Just my $0.02

Disclaimer:  my math is sometimes usually and just about always wrong, so if you have a problem with the numbers, just keep in mind that this is just an example and I know that not every boss drops an orb and that we might not down 20 bosses in a week, just take it with a grain of salt.

[Gruscovac]

maybe I'm not explaining my point well...

Orbs still go to bank, not rolled on. but if you were to send a letter to matbank saying, I'd like 3 crusdaer orbs for s [insert name of plan here] as it's an upgrade on my [link current item here]. I'll be getting [guilie x] to craft it for me.

the it wouldn't cost you to get them out of the bank... and seriously. no I wouldn't mind paying my own repairs, I do most of the time anyway. It's one the the cost that I don't take for granted when I got raiding.

[Gobbledoc]

i understand grus  but why should player 1 have all 3 when players b c d e f g  etc all want them too  becomes hard to say who should get them  we dont get alot so who do u thing decide whoc an have and whoc ant

[Gruscovac]

Were they in the raid when the item dropped, do they raid on a regular basis, is the upgrade big or small, could they get a better item a different way...

Sure it involves a bit of decision making, but as long as the reasoning in transparent the the leadership should have no problem saying yes or no to any of the requests.

ie if they want to get a chest made and they're in position 1-3 on the trophy list then they could get the tier chest instead. Leaving the Orbs for the new up and commers. who the upgrade is bigger for...

[Cancer]

In the immortal words of Martin Luther King: "I have a dream!"...

I dream of a day when everyone will come to raid prepared with all the "consumables", having read all the strats and keen to do everything to the best of their abilities and NOT EXPECTING to get "the loot" but do all they can for the guild and for the enjoyment of everyone else!

I dream of a day when no one (absolutely no one!) will mess-up any of the above, just so I don't have to read another mail from Booyar about "penalties" and how to change a fun, relaxing game activity into... what? work, school?!

But even more then that, I dream of all that so I don't have to slog through another debacle we so nonchalantly call "raid" and hear the frustrating outbursts of good people like Grus and Anyion and Pre, but rather hear the old call: "tell us another joke CC, while the buffs get refreshed"!

[booyar]

In the immortal words of Martin Luther King: "I have a dream!"...
I dream of a day when no one (absolutely no one!) will mess-up any of the above, just so I don't have to read another mail from Booyar about "penalties" and how to change a fun, relaxing game activity into... what? work, school?!

I wish i could have a conversation about the issue rather than about how i am a bad person.

Once again, misconstrued.  I wish you could just put me on ignore so you didn't see my posts.

My contribution was asked for and well meant and contained some particular solutions to percieved problems.  It was my attempt to be part of the solution rather than a problem.

[Cancer]

Oh, c'mon! don't be so dramatic Booyar! I actually think you're a very nice young man, but way too serious!

Plus, I have a very bad habit of picking on some one and taking him/her down a notch or two from time to time... and unfortunately you're such an easy target as you take things so seriously, you're touchy and can't take any (perceived) criticism well even when it's made tong in cheek :-P

[Athundar]

I must say that in general I enjoy raiding with the Roos, and accept that I may never be the best raider or best geared.

The interaction with the group and the felling of achievement when a difficult boss goes down has it's own reward.

A frustration I have is often the delayed start to raids, but I accept that this can be unavoidable at times.

I think however that we have a need to work on our communication between officers and raiders, and raiders and office.

We as raider need to put up our hands sometimes and say we don't understand or seek clarification and the explanations need to be clears and concise.

Good communication is everyone job.
 
The application of penalties need to be done carefully in a fair unbiased manner.

Ath 

[Precursor]

I would hope that those experienced in the Roos would trust that we would make (as Athundar says) fair and unbiased decisions.

Penalties are not brought in to make people feel like crap. They are a last resort to a player not responding to feedback. The penalty system above relies on communication. You will be warned first in most cases. If you do not understand what you have been told then it is beholden on you advise the officer that you don't understand. If you don't we will assume you have understood and therefore further infractions will be penalised. Paraphrasing Athundar - communication is a two way street.

Running a guild, playing the game, and raiding is to be fun, even for officers.

Hence simple black and white rules with any grey areas coming under the "stiff Sh@# that's what the GM/raid leader has decided" rule.

To get a perfect system that incorporates all variables and is 100% fair would require a Royal Commission into every loot drop, guild bank transaction and discipline decision. There is enough officer chat during raids just on the task allocation, actual fight we are doing and managing subs. We go for an 80% solution which means minimal delay and that the officers actually enjoy the run too rather than being admin bitches the entire time.

[Cancer]

Oh get off it Pre! Since when did a Royal Comission get it always right?! Or better yet, when was the last time?!!

A WoW guild - and last time I checked, that's what The Roos are! - is NOT a democracy! The guild belongs to Gob. Period! She can decide to do whatever she wants, she's the GM.

OK, so she has a hubby and some friends that give their time and experience and knowledge freely for the betterment of the guild and they are officers... things are discussed and agreed (or disagreed) on. but in the end she decides... and I for one think she's done a damn' good job so far, otherwise there would of been no Roos or a guild with just Gob and Pre in it!

So there! If you're happy to live in the Benevolent Dictatorship of Gob, who most of the times bothers to listen to you, the unwashed masses and actually frets over the impact of her decisions on the good and prosperity of the Roos, you're welcome!

If you want a Democracy... I don't know! Maybe go vote for for Anna Bligh or something! You'll feel all fuzzy when she lies to your face, she'll do nothing but blow hot air until the shi't hits the fan, then proceeds to put you and your children in debt and sells the guild (I mean state) assets to the lowest bidder!... Ah! She'll blame the GFC or something, then she'll ask you to vote her for 3 more years!
And she'll probably get voted back in office, 'coz that's what a Democracy is: the rule of the smart politicians who know how to manipulate the masses that can't (or can't be bothered to) think for themselves!