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booyar
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« on: April 28, 2009, 09:46:52 PM »

I have got to tank some instances recently.  For those of you that came i really appreciate it.

I have learned heaps.

Initial thoughts are - within the context of the 5 man instance - :
Manage information oversupply.  Figure out what matters and BIN the rest.  At least for my part there is a LOT to keep thinking about.

Once oversupply is managed or before it - both are required - figure out the rotation.  Make it so that it is at least fairly well known.  Make it so that in button placement it is easy to convert from AOE to Single and back in your mind.

O my GOD know the fights.  I know them as a healer.  It turns out that this is not at all.  Or if not at all at least not enough to tank passably well.

My most recent effort was in Nexus.  I got better toward the end but there were some serious wipes.  I will be a lot better on a return visit.  I think i am finally getting a handle on it.

Stuff i have considered/ now do:
Focus target the healer so that the bar is close. I  am using Grid so perhaps this wont be necessary.
Prioritise Death & Decay higher in my AE rotation if ther group is already 'set'.  If i am running to the mobs and the group is also then i have some time and can Howling blast then Icy touch and the second disease and the spread them with pestilence and finish up with blood boil.

More to think through.  I am now at the defence cap.

Still to do:
Yet more macros - have macroed everything with runic strike and some others like taunt have some fancy stuff happening.
Refine rotations.
Free up time to think about what is going to happen next - currently this is hard.

thanks also to those forthcoming with advice Smiley
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Starslayer
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« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2009, 10:59:53 PM »

I have an interest in tanking even though I've yet to try it - so I find this quite interesting. Keep us informed with your findings.  Smiley
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dahplagus
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« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2009, 11:14:28 AM »

This is only my views on tanking and more of a tanking 101 guide, but hopefully it has some useful information in it.

There are 3 main roles a tank has to perform, you have touched on them already.

1) Obviously, Keep agro off the group/raid.
2) Use a good rotation to generate threat to keep above the dps (and or healers)
3) Be able to survive.

Agro:
this is pretty much self explanatory. the tank keeps agro, the raid/group survives.
Different tanks gain and hold agro by different ways. this relates to your play style and class.

  • Paladins require the mobs to be hitting the tank to generate the bulk of their agro.
  • Death Knights use alot of AOE/Dots (depending on spec) for agro.
  • Druids rely on bleeds and physical attacks for agro.
  • Warriors use a mix of everything.
Most of these classes have crossover and it depends on the players play style how they manage this.

Why do tanks need to keep agro?
It may seem like a stupid question at first. but lets break it down.
A tank keeps agro to stop the mobs running after dps/healers. in donig this, the dps can cause damage, and the healers can keep the tanks alive. if a tank looses agro, a mob will generally run after a dps. require the healer to make a choice, save the dps or heal the tank. if a healer chooses to save the dps and let the tank die, this can be bad and wipe the group.
if the healer decides to save the tank, the dps will generally die, reducing the amount of dps on the mobs, and still requiring the tank to regain agro on the mob before more damage will come to the group/raid.

Taunting is a good way to regain agro, but as you will read in the section below about threat, this is not an ability that should be relied on and used sparingly.

Threat:
Threat is the bread and butter of a tank. however tank isn't the only thing required by a tank as you will discover by reading this.

What is threat or "tps"?
Threat is a value that a player has on every mob. it represents how "Threatening" a player is. the more threatening a player is, the more likely a mob is to attack that player. the person with the highest "threat" generally has the mobs agro. (however there are some exceptions to this rule).
the role of the tank is to be more threatening that the dps. sounds simple enough.

So how does one go about make them selfs more threatening?
99% of abilities a player has generate threat. everything from a Buff, to a heal to direct damage. players can reduce the threat of their abilities by talents, and tanks can increase them in the same fashion.

if your reading this then you would have seen the acronym called "tps". you would be surprised how many tanks don't know what this is or what its a measure of.
Simply it stands for "Threat Per Second". alot of people use a threat meter either Omen or one of the many other that exist. these generally have pretty bars that show nice numbers and move alot. its one thing to be able to view the bars, and another to be able to actually read them.

these bars represent how much threat a player has on a current mob. One thing needs to be stated before we continue.

TPS does not directly correspond to DPS!.

While it is true that when dps increases threat will also increase its not that consistent.
every ability has a threat modifier, this is a value that modifies the amount of threat that ability does.
for instance most heals have a threat modifier of -50% this means that for every 1 value of healing 0.5threat is generated
this also works for dps and tanks.
some dps have talents that reduce their threat by 30% ect. this means that for every 1 point of damage, 0.7threat is generated.
tanks also have aura's and stances this works in the same format as the rest take a death knights rune strike for example. this generates 150% threat. so for 1 point of damage, this generates 1.5% threat. but when you factor in the stances/auras this is increased even more. the death knights Frost aura increase threat by 80% 1.5*1.8 = 2.7.
this means that when a death knight in frost presence uses rune strike, it will generate 2.7 threat for every point of damage. therefor a strike that hits for 1500 will generate 4050 threat.

how does this relate to tps? well tps is the amount of that threat generated per second. so if you use runestrike every second you will have 4050 tps. where as a dps that hits for a 3000 firebolt every second will have a tps of 2100.
of cause these abilities cant be used every second, so a player will need to work out a rotation (a set order of abilities to perform in an order) that generates the maximum amount of threat.

To tank well, the tanks TPS needs to be higher than the DPS/Healers TPS.

But taunt puts you at the top of the threat list!
so here we come to it. the dreaded taunt. there is one more aspect of threat that hasn't been covered yet. to make things safer for ranged players, blizzard have implemented threat levels. if a player reaches 100% of the tanks threat, the mob wont immediately go agro them. there are two set % that a players threat must reach before the mob will switch agro. these values are 110% for melee and 130% for range.
these values act as a buffer to stop the mobs frequently changing targets.

How does this effect taunting?
Taunt puts you at the top of the threat list. no more no less. if a mob has run into a ranged group, they will have 130% threat over you. when you click taunt your threat jumps its current targets threat value+1. this means that a dps just has to breath on the mob, and it will go and attack them again.

huh? i don't understand.
Taunting will put you on top of the mobs threat list, causing it to agro you. BUT it will not keep you there. you must actively generate threat to get the mob to come back and stay focusing agro on you.
 
Survivability:
 /sigh at uni its taken me an hr and a half to write up to this point. i have class now... i will finish this after.
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Epimethius
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« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2009, 12:53:34 PM »

Small correcttion Dah.  Pallys don't get the bulk of our threat from gettign hit anymore.  We get some from getting hit through Sanc, Holy Shield, Ret aura, but the big threat abilities are Shield of Righteousness and Hammer of the Righteous.

Reading post at work so quickly getting this in and alt tabbing before boss sees.  Will comment more later.
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Epimethius / Dominitia / Anghammarad / Itosu / Cyrasol / Epididymis / Justncredibl

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Zutankhamun
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« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2009, 01:22:28 PM »

Fantastic thread, guys!

I'd like to add some non-obvious things to learn as a tank:

Learn when to chase a mod and learn when to let it run.

When I first started tanking, I ran after everything - this caused a) stress for me b) confusion for the team and often resulted in c) mayhem. Learn when to run after the mob and when to stick to your target, trusting the rest of the team to cc or kill it.

Learn when to heal yourself.

The healers will look after the tank, but don't forget that sometimes you need to heal yourself. Be careful, though - don't blow that long cooldown early otherwise it won't be available when you need it. Often the survivability of the group depends on the survivability of the tank.

Learn placement.

Placement isn't always about "turn the mob away from the group". Learn where the mobs are likely to run to/from and place yourself in harm's way. Learn when you will be punted and how to best recover from that. Learn when to put yourself between the mob and the healers/dps, and when to put the mob between yourself and the healers/dps. Different situations call for different strats.

Learn when to sacrifice threat for dps.

Sometimes, what you need is more dps not more threat. Like Dah said, tps != dps, so learn when to add those high-dps abilities in your rotation.

Learn to have some fear (but not too much).

You need to pull. You need to rush in. You also need to make sure that your group survives if you do these things. Don't be too bold, but don't be too timid either.

Hope this helps...
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Zurgug
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« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2009, 04:04:13 PM »

Learn to watch behind you. You will no doubt come across many, many groups that can not navigate past a single mob and you are the one they will blame for letting something that was 100% avoidable kill them even though you have already run past it.

Learn the instances, not just the fights. As you will be doing all/most of the pulling it will be up to you to know which mobs/pats to pull and when, as well as how to handle them. As you have mentioned, even if you think you know the instance back to front it can be very different when it is your responsibility to do the actual pull.

Make sure you can see your healers mana. Do not pull if there is not enough to heal you.

Taking the most damage does not make you the best tank. Taking the least damage while maintaining agro and not threat capping the DPS is the aim.

When looking at your rotations take into account how quick you need to build a threat lead. Having a modified rotation for your initial rotation may be required. From a warriors point of view this becomes important as you do not start with any (or very little) rage when the group has stopped, so you can not use all of your abilities straigh up, so the threat/rage balance needs to be looked at.

I will reiterate what Zutankhamun said. Do not be too timid. Once you have been asked to pull you have been asked to pull. There is nothing that I find more frustrating in a raid than waiting, waiting and then waiting some more after the ready check has gone out, everyone is ready, the tanks have been told to pull to watch them standing around wwondering who is going to do the pull. As a guild we waste way too much time with this and the more tanks we have that fix it the better we will get Smiley
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Zutankhamun
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« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2009, 10:43:58 PM »

"Learn to watch behind you." I will absolutely second that. As a mage, I stand back and watch the fight from one vantage point. As a druid tank, I constantly swirled my camera around to see what was in front AND behind me. Be aware of the whole group, not just your target. Note that you will probably do this anyway to avoid constantly staring at the crotch of the boss in front of you  Cheesy
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booyar
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« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2009, 01:01:59 PM »

I have a DK tank that has accumulated 39 badges from essentially running heroics.  Moste (30 ish) will be as tank.  The rest as a DPS

So i know some more than i did before.

Gear is not an issue.  Reputation is about to be no longer 'required' and shift to being optional.  Meaning i have my Defence head enchant tomorrow and will grind a rep or 2 to exalted for epic tanking gear but will also start 10man raiding.  Hodir rep will be about 3-4 days away unless i drop some $$ on it.

At the moment it is for me, all about managing information enough to be ABLE to be situationally aware.

This means knowing the fingering on my rotation to hold aggro be it AE or single target and look around without dropping the ball so to speak.  See what the threat meter shows, see who may be in trouble, possibly getting pounded by a loose mob.

At the moment i can:
Keep aggro unless the DPS is AEing and has very good gear OR is Single targeting in an AE pull and not hitting what i am.  The first case is my problem (ask the AE'er to come in later) and the second is the single target DPS er's problem (i might be a cause if i am trying to shift around the dot refreshing with pestilence - another mouseover macro needed here then).

If the healer gets aggro i can find this out - i have them as my focus and can taunt off them.  This is interim and a poor solution.  The permanent fix is to have a mouseover macro on an AE spell that does AE damage (centered on the person taking damage) and thus picks up what is causing the damage unless it is a rangestriker in which case i ought to have seen it.  They get a taunt or a death grip and an AE depending.  I have a ranged silence (strangulate) which i dont even have hotkeyed and will/should.

I find myself overwhelmed with information.  I 'feel' it getting less overwhelming and add some more infomation.  This keeps me learning at an aggressive rate.


Next is:

Saving DPS from overaggro.  By being able to be more alert, Some macroing.  Shifting my howling blast to be mouseover without stuffing up standard AE tanking.
Using mouseover ranged abilities to bring outlying mobs into an AE pack.  This is death grip & strangulate.  Failing that, take the pack to the mob which i sometimes do and probably should not.
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Sheal
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« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2009, 02:32:35 PM »

I find myself overwhelmed with information.  I 'feel' it getting less overwhelming and add some more infomation.  This keeps me learning at an aggressive rate.

This is good and bad. Good your going out of your way to learn and research, bad in the sense your flooding yourself. Being inundated with information can trigger negative thoughts of your toon (overwhelming, too much to remember) You need to find that balance.

I'm interested in healing & DPS'n some of your runs. Healing I can see how easy you're to keep up and DPS to test your agro generation. Just for my own curiosity Smiley
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booyar
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« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2009, 05:48:39 PM »

I find myself overwhelmed with information.  I 'feel' it getting less overwhelming and add some more infomation.  This keeps me learning at an aggressive rate.

This is good and bad. Good your going out of your way to learn and research, bad in the sense your flooding yourself. Being inundated with information can trigger negative thoughts of your toon (overwhelming, too much to remember) You need to find that balance.

I'm interested in healing & DPS'n some of your runs. Healing I can see how easy you're to keep up and DPS to test your agro generation. Just for my own curiosity Smiley
This goes back to the day of playing quake with mouse & keyboard and what mouse sensitivity should you choose.... the answer is something like slide it to as fast as you can handle and then give it 1 more click.  This is mainly a reflectiohn that the human brain triages information quite heavily and that there is an 'untapped capacity' there.

I think i am in terms of skills about a week away from being at a 'passing grade' which really means about 3-4 instances with time to process what went right & wrong.

for instance, on a re-run of Nexus (first one was painful) the group i was in just smashed it.  I did better on all the bosses i was having problems with and no-one died at all until the last boss when we wiped (was not my fault - healing couldnt keep up which means people were not clearing the ice debuff)

Oh and something that just occured to me... when TPS with room to spare, start tossing in Death Strikes - 2400 point heal isnt all that bad.

AND i need some yardstick for measuring my healer... My Alliance pally has something like >18k mana so that would be a 'raid geared' healer but when should i be concerned Smiley  Experience will show of course....  Times like that will let me be more keen on the self heal option...

As to the run... any time i can be on for >1 hour without getting called away by little people i am in Smiley
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booyar
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« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2009, 06:18:36 PM »

I got to offtank in certain setting in Naxx 25 last week.

Patches - Go all out on threat.  My gear is not good enough to worry about beating the MT on threat.  Dont hit Dark Command (Taunt)

Grobbulus - Addtank.  Use Dark command when the add spawns to get control.  Icy touch, Howling blast or anything Damage-wise dosent cut it.  Use Tab targeting to pick up the add.  Dont sweat hitting grobb, standing off is fine.

Gluth - Kiter.  Pretty straightforward.  Dont know how well i did, dropped Death & Decay & Frost blast when indicated.  Dont have a natrual slow.  In retrospect using hungering cold (the one that ferezes) would be ok if you drop it at a point where the mob isnt getting hit by anything else.

Anub - Easy to offtank at opener.  Be aware that an add spawns later on and be ready to pick it up.

Next boss in Spider wing ... grand widow someone or other.  Add tank.  Pick up half the adds, ok to be careful in doing it provided the adds are adequately separated from the boss.  Dont kill your add(s) - i did *naughty*.

Trash tanking - In big packs as 'add tank' dont get them all.  If nothing else just pick up one and single tank it so that the MT dosent get smashed to bits.  If you and another tank is doing this early in the pull it balances incoming damamge very well.

Instance tanking:
Violet Hold, The lightning boss - kite him up the back - make sure your healer is running ahead of you.  If the healer is following your kite you will wipe.  In circles at the bottom of the dais - does not work.

CoS - Tanked this and it went ok but missed the timer (low-ish dps).  Rationing use of defensive abilities is important on multi mob pulls for me in here.

On a related note, made out like a bandit in 25man Naxx and now HP is pussing 28k unbuffed.  Gear is certainly adequate for heroics.

A short note on DK weapon enchants.  Stoneskin Gargoyle is worth a ton of defence and allows me to exceed the defence cap... BUT an alternative would be to use the parry enchant (which is NOT subject to any diminishing returns) for a TPS increase.

Anecdotally, TPS is decent in the 2-4k range, tending toward the upper end of the range in a full raid.
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Fattrat
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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2009, 08:57:04 AM »

So good to see a player REALLY doing his/her research on the class so that they can improve their skill level. With that sort of effort you see 2 outcomes. Firstly, raid leaders and officers will notice and acknowledge your effort and take this into account when they are putting together a raid. Secondly, once you do find yourself in the raid your research and effort is visible because you have the knowledge and ability to do your job well.

I am not a DK tank but what i will add is not class specific... Once you have your different rotations set, dont get glued to them. You will always have to modify them based on the fight, the raid dps and the output dmg of the boss.
Never never never sacrifice survivability for tps. If you think your gonna drop you need to survive rather than keep smashin away on ur rotation.

Further, on a couple of the above points, As a tank you MUST know the rolls of your other raid members, you need to know everything that is happening around you so that you can react to or even preempt a change/problem in a fight.

AWARENESS IS THE KEY

GJ on the effort Booyar
And well done to those who have added to the thread.
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booyar
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« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2009, 08:03:02 PM »

Did some Instances today.

My previous problems with tanking VH were gone.  I know the drill now.  There is basically 1 pull in there that is tricky (elite squad that splits)

Did Utgarde Keep.  No problems.


Tanks 25man sarth 1d before it became sarth 0d due to some emo.  The wipe while i was tanking sarth in the first attempt was due to ppl hit by the wave.  I had to pull & the pull had him faced the wrong way.  Repositioning him was straightforward.

Second attempt i got kicked into the lava.  Still tons of ppl getting hit by flame & shadow damage.

Went to 0 Drake for the next attempt and it was ok.  My ability to pick up adds was made harder by the mob getting tanked in the middle of the island.  Think i had 14 adds on me and was doing fine at peak.

Tanked Emalon in VoA earlier in the day in a 10 man pug.  We didnt win.  Pugs seem to be not very durable Smiley  Some good loot to be had off him and he seems quite simple for something that drops T8 Uludar tokens Smiley
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Epimethius
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Pally Tanking


« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2009, 11:41:39 AM »

 Boo,

I am glad that tanking is working out for you.  Keep up the good work.

I may come to you for some tanking tips myself (I have a DK coming up).
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Epimethius / Dominitia / Anghammarad / Itosu / Cyrasol / Epididymis / Justncredibl

Baldrick: Permission to speak sir?
Edmund: Granted, with a due sense of exhaustion and dread.
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